WHAT IS A HOUSE FOR住宅所为何
WHAT IS A HOUSE FOR住宅所为何House byTalk withInfo

Sebastiano Brandolini: My parents lived in Milan. As we (me and my brother) were little children when they decided to build a summerhouse in a kind of colonial style, typical for the Milanese who built in Sardinia at the time. It was one of the first houses built in the north of Sardinia, contemporary to the large hotels of early real estate development of Costa Smeralda. The house I am talking about is not anonymous, its true designer was my mother. She was assisted by an architect, a local “geometra” who executed my mother’s instructions as precisely as possible and solved all the technical problems. She was a talented painter and therefore had, let’s say, the right sensitivity to be an architect, a bit like Le Corbusier.

The house has remained much like a child’s drawing. Conceptualizing a house by the sea is a bit like that. It was meant to be a house lacking in certain things, rather than equipped with all one can desire. It was conceived as a form given to the idea of subtraction rather than cumulation. At least, that’s how I see it.

WHY WAS THIS ASCETIC CONDITION SO IMPORTANT?

My parents had a rather particular idea of vacation, especially considering what was happening around that area of Sardinia. It is worth noting that from 1965 to 1974, for about ten years, my family went to this house practically for two and a half months every year. So it was a long vacation, but it was also something more. It was giving oneself the possibility for a certain aspect of one’s personality and identity to emerge. It was an aspect of life, that let’s say in Milan, was invisible.

It was a vacation that was a very long period, a period where friends came and went and where the rhythms and habits to which everyone was accustomed disappeared completely. Not only because it was far from home in Milan, but because the surrounding architecture and landscape made it possible.

A home is a space where you shouldn’t be on edge. This house kept you on the edge. Especially when you’re there alone, it’s a very intense experience because you have practically nothing around you. On the other hand, when that house is inhabited it suddenly becomes a lively home, a place where relationships between people are stimulated. I think that being in a slightly dangerous place invites you to reflect on various issues and leads to a different inner awareness. Like someone who crosses the Atlantic alone, if they don’t kill themselves, they get to know themselves a little better!

IN A PREVIOUS INTERVIEW, GÜNTHER VOGT ALSO SPOKE ABOUT HOW THIS ATTITUDE TO VACATION HAS ALMOST COMPLETELY DIASSAPEARED.

The house is in a particular place. The choice of location overlaps 100% with the idea of the house. This juxtaposition between the fantastic and erotic sensuality of the rocks and, let’s say, the cleanliness and practicality of the architecture is exactly the game of oppositions through which the house interacts with the landscape. To get to the house, the path is not long but quite challenging, in the sense that there are about 50 steps with a drop of twenty meters, and so as long as one is young, it’s easy to do both downhill and uphill. It is quite an effort for someone my age, especially because one has to carry the suitcases and empty bottles when leaving. It’s also quite narrow, about a meter and a half wide and made of stone, with plants that have grown a lot, so they form a kind of roof covering because the branches cross above, and it’s a very beautiful path that was once all sunny.

Now it’s all in the shade and extremely wild. It’s in the middle of the Mediterranean macchia, you can hear the noise of birds and insects. Sometimes one encounters a turtle or a small snake, so it’s a strategically very important place because it separates the position of the car from the position of the house.

It’s true, this is not commonly understandable anymore. The construction of houses and vacation homes is closely linked to sociology, anthropology, and habits. Just look at the magazines and interior design publications. Today, a large part of houses, like mine, and mine wasn’t the only house with this spirit, are a thing that people reject. It’s quite symptomatic that the meetings I had with real estate agents through whom I wanted to rent the house; they told me that a house like this is absolutely not in line with today’s needs. You can’t reach it by car, there are no windows. And anyway, to go down to the sea, you have to walk on a rock where many people feel a bit uncomfortable. It’s a house where the rooms are small, where you don’t have nighttime lighting, where you don’t have a garden. People without a garden don’t know how to use the landscape: using the garden is one thing, but using the landscape requires a higher education. Today you buy houses online. If you could have certain basic comforts, why shouldn’t you have more? Almost all houses in Sardinia now, regardless of their relationship with the sea, have a swimming pool. In my house, it was not possible to drive right up to the front door, you had to park the car 100 meters away. Today it’s unacceptable.

I took all these things for granted for many years. I realized as I grew older that these were conscious choices made by my parents. Even in the early 1970s many of the houses already manifested the idea of luxury linked to the excess of comfort rather than experience. My house, let’s say, was a house that puts experience at the forefront as a source of gratification and nourishment during the summer months.

During these months, one fills the head with experiences different from those in Milan. You notice a whole series of natural phenomena that you wouldn’t otherwise see. You notice how sunlight affects your mood. The physical activity shapes the hours of the day. One becomes somewhat wilder thanks to a house of this kind. A house can be a tool for rediscovery. It is also an astronomical instrument from a certain point of view; it’s a scientific instrument aimed at observing what’s around. It’s also a house for reading and writing, where there are many different places where everyone can go to read based on what one reads, on how one feels. And so from this point of view, it’s also an old-fashioned house. Because reading, perhaps a certain type of reading, belongs to a form of freedom.

DID YOU ONLY USE THE HOUSE IN THE SUMMER?

If I had proposed to my parents to go to Sardinia in February, they would have looked at me and said, ‘what are you talking about?’ In their mentality, it was the house for the summer. It was also built without heating, without any kind of insulation, without any kind of protection from the cold or humidity. During the winter, the house is closed, the sheets get washed, and the towels are put away. The closets are left open to have a minimum of ventilation, but in fact, the humidity is extremely high. In December, after you’ve made the bed, the sheets are completely wet in 15 minutes. The house faces north, both levels rest directly on the ground and are practically untouched by the sun’s rays for about seven months a year because the sun passes behind the mountain to the south, behind the house. So it’s a fantastic house in the summer because it’s cooler than the landscape. But it’s an uninhabitable house in the winter. Today, one of the things that have changed compared to holiday homes is that they are also used in different periods of the year. So, one question that has always been there is what should be done to turn the house into a year-round functioning home, and in fact, it would need to be a different house.

WHEN WE TALKED WITH BêKA AND LEMOINE ABOUT THE MORIYAMA HOUSE IN TOKYO, THEY TOLD US THAT THE OWNER MOVES AROUND THE HOUSE DEPENDING ON HIS MOOD. CAN YOU ASSOCIATE WITH THIS?

I imagined that one should try to go and read in different spots around the house. But this has always been a bit difficult. I mean, the landscape around is fantastic, but it’s not a landscape that we can consider inviting and welcoming. That’s why one almost always ends up staying inside the house or in the porch because this house, in the end, is perceived as a refuge from
the surrounding landscape. With the exception, of course, if one goes to these very flat, very beautiful, fantastic rocks, which seem to be on the deck of a sailboat and are practically on the water. And then in that case, you go for a swim, but there’s no filter between the house and the landscape. There’s no condition comparable to that of a garden or a courtyard or an intermediate space. The house has thick walls and an almost square plan. Immediately outside of it, you have the wild landscape, with the exception of this very small space in front, where there’s a stone bench right in front of the porch. The fact of not having any garden is perhaps the most intuitive thing from an architectural point of view. From my parents’ point of view, a garden there wasn’t necessary. You had the house, you had the porch, which is not an appendage of the house but a real room that is part of the house’s masonry. So it’s not made of wood. What’s there is the landscape, the rocks, and in front, you have no trees. It means you’re not protected from the wind and you can’t avoid seeing the landscape in front of the house. The fact that the porch has walls of a certain thickness is what ensures the right degree of protection from the wind.

If there had been a more open and neutral space from a certain point of view, and perhaps more modern as well, the house would not have allowed for the various uses throughout the day.

For many years, I probably didn’t realize that this was an architectural decision, but it must have been an architectural decision from my parents’ point of view. The variety of situations within the house are based on light, wind, and the activities that take place.

HOWEVER, THE HOUSE IS NOT DESIGNED AS A ERGONOMIC OBJECT.

I remember a place on the porch under the arch, which is about two meters long. It’s only 60 centimeters wide so when you sit there it’s like putting yourself in a forced position, while you have to stay still with very little room for maneuver. It’s an interesting situation, because it was not thought of in an ergonomic or functionalist sense, that is, it was not designed to play that role. However, thanks to architectural precision, diverse places of this kind can be used in a functional sense, perhaps more as if they were conceived by a functionalist architect. It’s an idea of architecture, that doesn’t tell you exactly what to do and how the house should be used, but the house can be used in many different ways without forcing you to use them in a certain way. Aldo Rossi’s early projects had this kind of vocation in creating situations where there are many special places and where certain actions can take place without giving prescriptions. It was a house full of activities. It was indeed a place of thought, but also as a place of adventure.

AND THIS SENSE OF ADVENTURE, IS IT SOMETHING THAT STILL EXISTS?

I think it still exists, but maybe it has changed. The meaning has probably shifted a bit. However, I see that young people, for example, engage in a type of sport that may be more competitive than it was forty years ago. I think for many people, that’s an adventure. The experience of food, for example, is seen as a type of adventure.

Of course, these things are heavily influenced by marketing, but I believe adventure still exists. However, those who want a truly adventurous vacation today don’t go to Sardinia anymore, just as they don’t go to Engadine. They go somewhere else.

Of course, you can find someone like Vogt there, but he has a very specific cultured personal sensibility. Let’s say that once there was a precise movement that led many people to seek such situations. Even Zanuso built a house nearby, then also Magistretti, and these are houses that belonged, we could say, to the first generation of explorers, people who were searching for a different existence; alternative ways of dwelling and being in a place.

What made our house different from many others is the dimension of the context; for example, many of Alberto Ponis’ houses sit on small plots of land of 2000-2500 square meters, are now surrounded by just as many other houses. They therefore had a small protection around them, whereas my house, and this was something my father was aware of at the beginning of the project, has land around that totals some 20,000 square meters. And it is mainly these rocks that make the house unreachable; you could say that the real fortress of the house are the rocks. Which means that even from the sea, people don’t come near the house because they are afraid of these large rocks; it’s a somewhat medieval system, a kind of natural defense. So you feel quite protected, but equally isolated. Protection is a double-edged sword, isn’t it? If nothing happens, it’s okay, but in a moment where something happens, it becomes a dangerous situation because it’s not easy to be reached and helped. When you’re there alone, you feel very exposed.

THE HOUSE HAS TWO MAIN DOORS - ONE ON THE UPPER LEVEL AND ONE ON THE LOWER THE PORCH.

The back door of the house has worked very well over the years. It is an important element, because when you arrive at the house, you haven’t seen the sea yet, and only sensed it whilst descending path; it’s not obvious.

The back of the house is effectively a screen. So one has to enter, open the house, go down, open the windows, etc., at only this point do you see the sea, and also simultaneously realize that it is much closer than one thought. And the same journey made in reverse is also particularly curious because one has to close all the windows on the ground floor, go upstairs, grab the suitcases, close the back door of the house, and the landscape is no longer visible. At this point, one is already mentally in the car, ready to leave. So there is this idea that only when one arrives at the house does one see the sea, which was hidden before, the house is kind of a barrier along the way.


AS YOU SPEAK ABOUT THIS HOUSE A PORTRAIT OF THE OWNER COMES TO MIND –
A PORTRAIT OF YOUR PARENTS SENSIBILITY.

I think houses are a bit like people, in a sense that they have their period of youth, then they become elderly, and eventually they die. There’s also the evolution, the genealogy of architecture. Throughout this journey, they inform us, they change us and the quality of our relationships. It’s important to establish an emotional relationship with these places and ensure that houses are self-portraits of who we are. And so, this is the incredible prerogative of residential architecture compared to museum architecture or office buildings or train stations, is that houses allow us to have a deeper relationship with our personality. They are companions on the road like wives, husbands and children. But I don’t want to be too romantic in saying these things.

Of course, many of the very conventional houses seen in magazines these days negate this idea of a self-portrait and become very mundane, generic and made to be resold.

18.04.23

塞巴斯蒂亚诺·布兰德里尼:我的父母住在米 兰。在我们(我和弟弟)还小的时候，他们决定 建造一座殖民风格的避暑屋，这是当时在撒 丁岛盖房的米兰人的典型风格。这是在撒丁 岛北部建造的第一批住宅之一，与斯美拉尔 达海岸早期房地产开发中的大型酒店同时 代。我所说的住宅并非师出无名，它的真正设 计师是我的母亲。她得到了一位建筑师的协 助，这位当地的“几何学家”尽可能精确地执 行了她的指示，并解决了所有的技术问题。我 的母亲是一位才华横溢的画家，因此，可以 说，她对建筑的敏感度很高，有点像勒·柯布 西耶(Le Corbusier)。

这栋住宅就像一幅儿童画。构思海边的住宅 就有点像这样。它的本意是缺少某些东西，而 不是配备人们所希望的一切。它的形式构思 方式是做减法而不是累加法。至少我是这么 认为的。

为什么这种禁欲条件如此重 要?

我的父母对度假有一种相当特别的想 法，尤其是考虑到当时撒丁岛那一带发生的 事情。值得注意的是，从1965年到1974年， 在大约十年的时间里，我的家人几乎每年都 会去这所住宅里住上两个半月。所以这是一 个漫长的假期，但也有了更多的意义。它在某 个层面上让自己的个性和身份有了崭露的可 能。这是生活的一个层面，比方说，在米兰是 看不到的。

那是一段很长的假期，朋友们来来往往，大家 惯有的节奏和习性完全消失了。这不仅仅因 为它远离米兰的家，周围的建筑和景观也使 之成为可能。

家是一个你不应该感到紧张的空间。这所住 宅让你一直处于临界状态。尤其是当你一个 人在那里时，那是一种非常紧张的体验，因为 你周围几乎什么都没有。另一方面，当住宅里 有人居住时，它突然变成了一个热闹的家，一 个激发人与人之间关系的地方。我认为，在一 个略显危险的地方，你会对各种问题进行反 思，并产生不同的内在意识。就像独自横渡大 西洋的人，如果他们没有自杀，就会对自己有 更多的了解!

在之前的一次采访中，岡瑟·沃 格特(Günther Vogt)也谈到了这种度 假态度是如何几乎完全消失的。

住宅位于一个特定的地方。地点的选择 与其理念完全一致。可以说，岩石的梦幻和情 色感与建筑的整洁和实用性之间的并置，正 是住宅与景观互动的对立游戏。通往住宅的 路并不长，但颇具挑战性，因为大约有50级 台阶，落差达二十米，所以只要年轻，下坡和 上坡都很容易。但对于我这个年纪的人来说， 走这条路是相当费劲的，尤其是离开时还得 拎着行李箱和空瓶子。这条路也很窄，大约一 米半宽，石块铺就，植物丛生，树枝在上空交 叉，形成了一种覆盖的屋檐。这是一条非常美 丽的小路，曾经阳光明媚，现在荫翳遮蔽，野 趣十足。

它耸立于地中海灌木之间，你可以听到鸟叫 和虫鸣。有时还会遇到乌龟或小蛇，这是一个 战略上非常重要的位置，因为它隔开了汽车 和住宅。

它耸立于地中海灌木之间，你可以听到鸟叫 和虫鸣。有时还会遇到乌龟或小蛇，这是一个 战略上非常重要的位置，因为它隔开了汽车 和住宅。

的确，这已经不是一般人能够理解的了。住宅 和度假屋的建造与社会学、人类学和生活习 惯密切相关。看看杂志和室内设计出版物就 知道了。如今，很大一部分住宅都是人们所排 斥的，比如我的，当然我的住宅并不是唯一具 有这种精神的。我想通过房地产中介租掉这 栋住宅，但他们告诉我，这样的房子绝对不符 合当今的需求。车到不了，也没有窗户。 而且要下到海边，你必须走在岩石上，很多人 都觉得有点不舒服。这栋住宅的房间很小，没 有夜间照明，也没有花园。没有花园，人们就 不知道如何使用景观:使用花园是一回事，但 使用景观需要更高的教育。 如今，你可以在网上买房。既然可以拥有一些 基本的舒适性，为什么不拥有更多呢?现在撒 丁岛几乎所有的住宅，无论与海的关系如何， 都有一个游泳池。在我家，车不能直接开到前 门，必须把停在百米开外。如今，这是不可接 受的。

多年来，我一直认为这些都是理所当然的。随 着年龄的增长，我意识到这些都是父母有意 识的选择。 即使是20世纪70年代初，许多住宅也已经体 现出与过度舒适而非体验相关的奢华理念。 我家的住宅，这么说，就把夏季的体验放在首 位，将其作为满足和滋养的源泉。

在这几个月里，人们的头脑中充满了与米兰 不同的体验。你会注意到一系列别处难寻的 自然现象。你会注意到阳光如何影响你的心 情。身体活动决定了一天的时间。得益于此， 一个人会变得更加野性。住宅可以是工具，用 来重新发现。以某种视角来看，它也是一种天 文仪器;是一种旨在观察周围事物的科学仪 器。它也是用来阅读和写作的住宅，有那么多 地方，每个人可以根据自己的阅读内容和感 受去选择。从这个角度说来，它也是一座老式 的住宅。因为阅读，也许是某种类型的阅读， 属于一种自由。

你只在夏天使用这所住宅吗?

如果我向父母提议二月份去撒丁岛，他 们会看着我说:“你在说什么?”他们的思维 中，这所住宅属于夏天。住宅建成时没有暖 气，没有任何隔热、防寒或防潮措施。 冬天的时候，住宅关闭，床单会洗，毛巾会放 好。壁橱敞开着，以保持最起码的通风，但事 实上，湿度非常高。十二月，铺好床后，15分钟 内床单就会完全湿透。房子坐南朝北，两层都 直接靠在地面上，一年中大约有七个月阳光 几乎照不到，因为太阳在南侧，从住宅背面的 山后穿过。这栋住宅在夏天是绝佳的，因为它 比地表更凉爽。但在冬天，这里就不适合居住 了。如今，与度假屋相比发生变化的一点是， 度假屋可以在一年中的不同时期使用。所以 有一个问题一直存在，那就是该如何把它变 成一个全年都能使用的住宅，事实上，这需要 的是另一栋住宅。

当我们与贝卡和勒莫奈谈论东 京的森山邸时，他们告诉我们，屋主会 根据自己的心情在住宅内走动。你会联 想到这一点吗?

在我的想象中，一个人应该试着在住宅 外围的不同地点去走动和阅读。但这总是有 点困难。我的意思是，周围的风景很美，但并 不是我们所认为的温馨宜人的风景。这就是 为什么人们最后几乎总是待在住宅内或门廊 里，因为这所住宅最终被视为周围景观的避 难所。当然，也有例外情况，那就是人们来到 这些非常平坦、非常美丽、非常奇妙的岩石 旁，这些岩石仿佛就在帆船的甲板上，几乎就 在水面上。在这种情况下，你可以去游泳，但 住宅和风景之间没有过滤网。没有任何类似 于花园、庭院或中间地带的空间。住宅的墙很 厚，平面几乎是正方形。住宅外面是一片荒 野，只有门廊前的一小块空地上有一个石凳。 从建筑学的角度来看，没有花园也许是最直 观的。从我父母的角度来看，那里不需要花 园。你有住宅，你有门廊，它不是住宅的附属 物，而是一个真正的房间，是住宅砖石结构的 一部分。所以它不是木头做的。那里有的景 观，岩石，而且前面没有树木。这意味着你无 法避风，也无法回避直视住宅前的风景。事实 上，门廊的墙壁有一定的厚度，这样才能确保 适当程度的防风。 从某种角度看，如果有一个更加开放和中性 的空间，或许也更加现代化，那么这座住宅就 无法满足全天候的各种用途。

多年来，我可能没有意识到这是一个建筑决 策，但从我父母的角度来看，这一定是一个建 筑决策。住宅内的各种情形都是根据光线、风 和所进行的活动来决定的。

然而，这所住宅并不是作为人 体工程学的对象来设计的。

我记得拱门下的门廊上有个地方，大约 有两米长。它只有60厘米宽，所以当你坐在那 里的时候，就像是把自己放在一个被迫的位 置上，而你必须保持不动，几乎没有回旋的余 地。这是一种有趣的情况，因为它并不是从人 体工程学或功能主义的角度来考虑的，也就 是说，它并不是为了扮演这种角色而设计的。 然而，得益于建筑的精确性，这种多样化的场 所可以在功能意义上运作，也许更像是由功 能主义建筑师设计的。这是一种建筑理念，它 不会明确告诉你应该做什么，住宅应该如何 使用，但住宅可以以多种不同的方式使用，你 不必被迫以某种方式来使用它。阿尔多·罗西

(Aldo Rossi)的早期项目就具有这种使命 感，他创造了许多特殊的场所，在这些场所中 可以进行某些活动，而没有给出规定。这是一 座充满活动的住宅。它的确是一个思考的地 方，但同时也是一个冒险的地方。

这种冒险精神现在还存在吗?

我认为它仍然存在，但也许已经改变了。 其含义可能发生了一些变化。不过，我看到年 轻人，比如说，参加的运动可能比四十年前更 具竞争性。我认为，对许多人来说，这是一种 冒险。例如，美食体验也被视为一种冒险。

当然这些东西深受市场营销的影响，但我相 信冒险仍然存在。然而，如今那些想要真正冒 险性度假的人已经不会去撒丁岛了，就像他 们不会去恩加丁一样。他们去别的地方。

当然，你也可以在那里找到像沃格特这样的 人，但他有着非常独特的个人文化感受力。比 方说，曾经有一场精确的运动，导致许多人去 寻找这样的环境。就连扎努索也在附近建了 一座房子，然后是马吉斯特雷蒂。我们可以 说，这些住宅都属于第一代探险家，他们在寻 找不同的存在方式;不同的居住和在某地的 方式。

例如，阿尔贝托·波尼斯(Alberto Ponis)的 许多住宅都坐落在2000-2500平方米的小块 土地上，现在被大量的其他住宅包围着。因为 他们的住宅周围只有一小块保护地，而我的 住宅——这是我父亲在项目开始时就意识到 的——周围有总面积约两万平方米的土地。 可以说，岩石使得这所住宅遥不可及，是它真 正的堡垒。这意味着，即使从海上看，人们也 不会靠近，因为他们害怕这些大石头;这是一 个有点中世纪风格的系统，是一种自然防御。 你会因此觉得自己受到了很好的保护，但也 同样与世隔绝。保护是一把双刃剑，不是吗? 如果无事发生，那还好，但一旦发生了什么， 情况就会变得很危险，不容易得到帮助。当 你一个人在那里的时候，你会有非常暴露的 感觉。

住宅有两个大门——一个在上 层，一个在下层门廊。

住宅的后门多年来一直很好用。它是一 个重要的元素，因为到达时，你还没有看到 海，只是在下山的路上感觉到了它的存在，并 不明显。住宅的后背实际上是一道屏风。人们 必须进入、打开房门、下楼、打开窗户，只有在 这个时候，你才会看到海，同时也意识到它比 想象中的要近得多。同样的旅程反过来也特 别令人好奇，因为你必须关闭一楼的所有窗 户，上楼拿起行李箱，关上房子的后门，这时 就再也看不到风景了。此时，你已经坐上车， 准备离开。所以有这样一种想法，只有到了住 宅里，人们才会看到海，而海之前是隐蔽的， 住宅就像是途中的一道壁垒。

当您谈到这所住宅时，脑海中 浮现出主人的肖像——您父母的感性 肖像。

我觉得住宅有点像人，从某种意义上说， 它们有自己的青春期，然后变成老人，最后 死去。这也是建筑的演变和谱系。在这个过程 中，它们向我们传递信息，改变我们和我们之 间关系的质量。重要的是要与这些地方建立 情感联系，确保住宅是我们的自画像。因此， 与博物馆建筑、办公楼或火车站相比，住宅建 筑具有令人难以置信的特权，那就是住宅能 让我们与自己的个性建立更深层次的关系。 它们就像妻子、丈夫和孩子一样，是旅途中的 伴侣。但我不想在说这些话时过于浪漫。

当然，如今在杂志上看到的许多很常规的住 宅都否定了这种自画像的想法，变得非常世 俗、普通，它们是为了转售而建的。

23年4月18日

Sebastiano Brandolini: My parents lived in Milan. As we (me and my brother) were little children when they decided to build a summerhouse in a kind of colonial style, typical for the Milanese who built in Sardinia at the time. It was one of the first houses built in the north of Sardinia, contemporary to the large hotels of early real estate development of Costa Smeralda. The house I am talking about is not anonymous, its true designer was my mother. She was assisted by an architect, a local “geometra” who executed my mother’s instructions as precisely as possible and solved all the technical problems. She was a talented painter and therefore had, let’s say, the right sensitivity to be an architect, a bit like Le Corbusier.

The house has remained much like a child’s drawing. Conceptualizing a house by the sea is a bit like that. It was meant to be a house lacking in certain things, rather than equipped with all one can desire. It was conceived as a form given to the idea of subtraction rather than cumulation. At least, that’s how I see it.

WHY WAS THIS ASCETIC CONDITION SO IMPORTANT?

My parents had a rather particular idea of vacation, especially considering what was happening around that area of Sardinia. It is worth noting that from 1965 to 1974, for about ten years, my family went to this house practically for two and a half months every year. So it was a long vacation, but it was also something more. It was giving oneself the possibility for a certain aspect of one’s personality and identity to emerge. It was an aspect of life, that let’s say in Milan, was invisible.

It was a vacation that was a very long period, a period where friends came and went and where the rhythms and habits to which everyone was accustomed disappeared completely. Not only because it was far from home in Milan, but because the surrounding architecture and landscape made it possible.

A home is a space where you shouldn’t be on edge. This house kept you on the edge. Especially when you’re there alone, it’s a very intense experience because you have practically nothing around you. On the other hand, when that house is inhabited it suddenly becomes a lively home, a place where relationships between people are stimulated. I think that being in a slightly dangerous place invites you to reflect on various issues and leads to a different inner awareness. Like someone who crosses the Atlantic alone, if they don’t kill themselves, they get to know themselves a little better!

IN A PREVIOUS INTERVIEW, GÜNTHER VOGT ALSO SPOKE ABOUT HOW THIS ATTITUDE TO VACATION HAS ALMOST COMPLETELY DIASSAPEARED.

The house is in a particular place. The choice of location overlaps 100% with the idea of the house. This juxtaposition between the fantastic and erotic sensuality of the rocks and, let’s say, the cleanliness and practicality of the architecture is exactly the game of oppositions through which the house interacts with the landscape. To get to the house, the path is not long but quite challenging, in the sense that there are about 50 steps with a drop of twenty meters, and so as long as one is young, it’s easy to do both downhill and uphill. It is quite an effort for someone my age, especially because one has to carry the suitcases and empty bottles when leaving. It’s also quite narrow, about a meter and a half wide and made of stone, with plants that have grown a lot, so they form a kind of roof covering because the branches cross above, and it’s a very beautiful path that was once all sunny.

Now it’s all in the shade and extremely wild. It’s in the middle of the Mediterranean macchia, you can hear the noise of birds and insects. Sometimes one encounters a turtle or a small snake, so it’s a strategically very important place because it separates the position of the car from the position of the house.

It’s true, this is not commonly understandable anymore. The construction of houses and vacation homes is closely linked to sociology, anthropology, and habits. Just look at the magazines and interior design publications. Today, a large part of houses, like mine, and mine wasn’t the only house with this spirit, are a thing that people reject. It’s quite symptomatic that the meetings I had with real estate agents through whom I wanted to rent the house; they told me that a house like this is absolutely not in line with today’s needs. You can’t reach it by car, there are no windows. And anyway, to go down to the sea, you have to walk on a rock where many people feel a bit uncomfortable. It’s a house where the rooms are small, where you don’t have nighttime lighting, where you don’t have a garden. People without a garden don’t know how to use the landscape: using the garden is one thing, but using the landscape requires a higher education. Today you buy houses online. If you could have certain basic comforts, why shouldn’t you have more? Almost all houses in Sardinia now, regardless of their relationship with the sea, have a swimming pool. In my house, it was not possible to drive right up to the front door, you had to park the car 100 meters away. Today it’s unacceptable.

I took all these things for granted for many years. I realized as I grew older that these were conscious choices made by my parents. Even in the early 1970s many of the houses already manifested the idea of luxury linked to the excess of comfort rather than experience. My house, let’s say, was a house that puts experience at the forefront as a source of gratification and nourishment during the summer months.

During these months, one fills the head with experiences different from those in Milan. You notice a whole series of natural phenomena that you wouldn’t otherwise see. You notice how sunlight affects your mood. The physical activity shapes the hours of the day. One becomes somewhat wilder thanks to a house of this kind. A house can be a tool for rediscovery. It is also an astronomical instrument from a certain point of view; it’s a scientific instrument aimed at observing what’s around. It’s also a house for reading and writing, where there are many different places where everyone can go to read based on what one reads, on how one feels. And so from this point of view, it’s also an old-fashioned house. Because reading, perhaps a certain type of reading, belongs to a form of freedom.

DID YOU ONLY USE THE HOUSE IN THE SUMMER?

If I had proposed to my parents to go to Sardinia in February, they would have looked at me and said, ‘what are you talking about?’ In their mentality, it was the house for the summer. It was also built without heating, without any kind of insulation, without any kind of protection from the cold or humidity. During the winter, the house is closed, the sheets get washed, and the towels are put away. The closets are left open to have a minimum of ventilation, but in fact, the humidity is extremely high. In December, after you’ve made the bed, the sheets are completely wet in 15 minutes. The house faces north, both levels rest directly on the ground and are practically untouched by the sun’s rays for about seven months a year because the sun passes behind the mountain to the south, behind the house. So it’s a fantastic house in the summer because it’s cooler than the landscape. But it’s an uninhabitable house in the winter. Today, one of the things that have changed compared to holiday homes is that they are also used in different periods of the year. So, one question that has always been there is what should be done to turn the house into a year-round functioning home, and in fact, it would need to be a different house.

WHEN WE TALKED WITH BêKA AND LEMOINE ABOUT THE MORIYAMA HOUSE IN TOKYO, THEY TOLD US THAT THE OWNER MOVES AROUND THE HOUSE DEPENDING ON HIS MOOD. CAN YOU ASSOCIATE WITH THIS?

I imagined that one should try to go and read in different spots around the house. But this has always been a bit difficult. I mean, the landscape around is fantastic, but it’s not a landscape that we can consider inviting and welcoming. That’s why one almost always ends up staying inside the house or in the porch because this house, in the end, is perceived as a refuge from
the surrounding landscape. With the exception, of course, if one goes to these very flat, very beautiful, fantastic rocks, which seem to be on the deck of a sailboat and are practically on the water. And then in that case, you go for a swim, but there’s no filter between the house and the landscape. There’s no condition comparable to that of a garden or a courtyard or an intermediate space. The house has thick walls and an almost square plan. Immediately outside of it, you have the wild landscape, with the exception of this very small space in front, where there’s a stone bench right in front of the porch. The fact of not having any garden is perhaps the most intuitive thing from an architectural point of view. From my parents’ point of view, a garden there wasn’t necessary. You had the house, you had the porch, which is not an appendage of the house but a real room that is part of the house’s masonry. So it’s not made of wood. What’s there is the landscape, the rocks, and in front, you have no trees. It means you’re not protected from the wind and you can’t avoid seeing the landscape in front of the house. The fact that the porch has walls of a certain thickness is what ensures the right degree of protection from the wind.

If there had been a more open and neutral space from a certain point of view, and perhaps more modern as well, the house would not have allowed for the various uses throughout the day.

For many years, I probably didn’t realize that this was an architectural decision, but it must have been an architectural decision from my parents’ point of view. The variety of situations within the house are based on light, wind, and the activities that take place.

HOWEVER, THE HOUSE IS NOT DESIGNED AS A ERGONOMIC OBJECT.

I remember a place on the porch under the arch, which is about two meters long. It’s only 60 centimeters wide so when you sit there it’s like putting yourself in a forced position, while you have to stay still with very little room for maneuver. It’s an interesting situation, because it was not thought of in an ergonomic or functionalist sense, that is, it was not designed to play that role. However, thanks to architectural precision, diverse places of this kind can be used in a functional sense, perhaps more as if they were conceived by a functionalist architect. It’s an idea of architecture, that doesn’t tell you exactly what to do and how the house should be used, but the house can be used in many different ways without forcing you to use them in a certain way. Aldo Rossi’s early projects had this kind of vocation in creating situations where there are many special places and where certain actions can take place without giving prescriptions. It was a house full of activities. It was indeed a place of thought, but also as a place of adventure.

AND THIS SENSE OF ADVENTURE, IS IT SOMETHING THAT STILL EXISTS?

I think it still exists, but maybe it has changed. The meaning has probably shifted a bit. However, I see that young people, for example, engage in a type of sport that may be more competitive than it was forty years ago. I think for many people, that’s an adventure. The experience of food, for example, is seen as a type of adventure.

Of course, these things are heavily influenced by marketing, but I believe adventure still exists. However, those who want a truly adventurous vacation today don’t go to Sardinia anymore, just as they don’t go to Engadine. They go somewhere else.

Of course, you can find someone like Vogt there, but he has a very specific cultured personal sensibility. Let’s say that once there was a precise movement that led many people to seek such situations. Even Zanuso built a house nearby, then also Magistretti, and these are houses that belonged, we could say, to the first generation of explorers, people who were searching for a different existence; alternative ways of dwelling and being in a place.

What made our house different from many others is the dimension of the context; for example, many of Alberto Ponis’ houses sit on small plots of land of 2000-2500 square meters, are now surrounded by just as many other houses. They therefore had a small protection around them, whereas my house, and this was something my father was aware of at the beginning of the project, has land around that totals some 20,000 square meters. And it is mainly these rocks that make the house unreachable; you could say that the real fortress of the house are the rocks. Which means that even from the sea, people don’t come near the house because they are afraid of these large rocks; it’s a somewhat medieval system, a kind of natural defense. So you feel quite protected, but equally isolated. Protection is a double-edged sword, isn’t it? If nothing happens, it’s okay, but in a moment where something happens, it becomes a dangerous situation because it’s not easy to be reached and helped. When you’re there alone, you feel very exposed.

THE HOUSE HAS TWO MAIN DOORS - ONE ON THE UPPER LEVEL AND ONE ON THE LOWER THE PORCH.

The back door of the house has worked very well over the years. It is an important element, because when you arrive at the house, you haven’t seen the sea yet, and only sensed it whilst descending path; it’s not obvious.

The back of the house is effectively a screen. So one has to enter, open the house, go down, open the windows, etc., at only this point do you see the sea, and also simultaneously realize that it is much closer than one thought. And the same journey made in reverse is also particularly curious because one has to close all the windows on the ground floor, go upstairs, grab the suitcases, close the back door of the house, and the landscape is no longer visible. At this point, one is already mentally in the car, ready to leave. So there is this idea that only when one arrives at the house does one see the sea, which was hidden before, the house is kind of a barrier along the way.


AS YOU SPEAK ABOUT THIS HOUSE A PORTRAIT OF THE OWNER COMES TO MIND –
A PORTRAIT OF YOUR PARENTS SENSIBILITY.

I think houses are a bit like people, in a sense that they have their period of youth, then they become elderly, and eventually they die. There’s also the evolution, the genealogy of architecture. Throughout this journey, they inform us, they change us and the quality of our relationships. It’s important to establish an emotional relationship with these places and ensure that houses are self-portraits of who we are. And so, this is the incredible prerogative of residential architecture compared to museum architecture or office buildings or train stations, is that houses allow us to have a deeper relationship with our personality. They are companions on the road like wives, husbands and children. But I don’t want to be too romantic in saying these things.

Of course, many of the very conventional houses seen in magazines these days negate this idea of a self-portrait and become very mundane, generic and made to be resold.

18.04.23

塞巴斯蒂亚诺·布兰德里尼:我的父母住在米 兰。在我们(我和弟弟)还小的时候，他们决定 建造一座殖民风格的避暑屋，这是当时在撒 丁岛盖房的米兰人的典型风格。这是在撒丁 岛北部建造的第一批住宅之一，与斯美拉尔 达海岸早期房地产开发中的大型酒店同时 代。我所说的住宅并非师出无名，它的真正设 计师是我的母亲。她得到了一位建筑师的协 助，这位当地的“几何学家”尽可能精确地执 行了她的指示，并解决了所有的技术问题。我 的母亲是一位才华横溢的画家，因此，可以 说，她对建筑的敏感度很高，有点像勒·柯布 西耶(Le Corbusier)。

这栋住宅就像一幅儿童画。构思海边的住宅 就有点像这样。它的本意是缺少某些东西，而 不是配备人们所希望的一切。它的形式构思 方式是做减法而不是累加法。至少我是这么 认为的。

为什么这种禁欲条件如此重 要?

我的父母对度假有一种相当特别的想 法，尤其是考虑到当时撒丁岛那一带发生的 事情。值得注意的是，从1965年到1974年， 在大约十年的时间里，我的家人几乎每年都 会去这所住宅里住上两个半月。所以这是一 个漫长的假期，但也有了更多的意义。它在某 个层面上让自己的个性和身份有了崭露的可 能。这是生活的一个层面，比方说，在米兰是 看不到的。

那是一段很长的假期，朋友们来来往往，大家 惯有的节奏和习性完全消失了。这不仅仅因 为它远离米兰的家，周围的建筑和景观也使 之成为可能。

家是一个你不应该感到紧张的空间。这所住 宅让你一直处于临界状态。尤其是当你一个 人在那里时，那是一种非常紧张的体验，因为 你周围几乎什么都没有。另一方面，当住宅里 有人居住时，它突然变成了一个热闹的家，一 个激发人与人之间关系的地方。我认为，在一 个略显危险的地方，你会对各种问题进行反 思，并产生不同的内在意识。就像独自横渡大 西洋的人，如果他们没有自杀，就会对自己有 更多的了解!

在之前的一次采访中，岡瑟·沃 格特(Günther Vogt)也谈到了这种度 假态度是如何几乎完全消失的。

住宅位于一个特定的地方。地点的选择 与其理念完全一致。可以说，岩石的梦幻和情 色感与建筑的整洁和实用性之间的并置，正 是住宅与景观互动的对立游戏。通往住宅的 路并不长，但颇具挑战性，因为大约有50级 台阶，落差达二十米，所以只要年轻，下坡和 上坡都很容易。但对于我这个年纪的人来说， 走这条路是相当费劲的，尤其是离开时还得 拎着行李箱和空瓶子。这条路也很窄，大约一 米半宽，石块铺就，植物丛生，树枝在上空交 叉，形成了一种覆盖的屋檐。这是一条非常美 丽的小路，曾经阳光明媚，现在荫翳遮蔽，野 趣十足。

它耸立于地中海灌木之间，你可以听到鸟叫 和虫鸣。有时还会遇到乌龟或小蛇，这是一个 战略上非常重要的位置，因为它隔开了汽车 和住宅。

它耸立于地中海灌木之间，你可以听到鸟叫 和虫鸣。有时还会遇到乌龟或小蛇，这是一个 战略上非常重要的位置，因为它隔开了汽车 和住宅。

的确，这已经不是一般人能够理解的了。住宅 和度假屋的建造与社会学、人类学和生活习 惯密切相关。看看杂志和室内设计出版物就 知道了。如今，很大一部分住宅都是人们所排 斥的，比如我的，当然我的住宅并不是唯一具 有这种精神的。我想通过房地产中介租掉这 栋住宅，但他们告诉我，这样的房子绝对不符 合当今的需求。车到不了，也没有窗户。 而且要下到海边，你必须走在岩石上，很多人 都觉得有点不舒服。这栋住宅的房间很小，没 有夜间照明，也没有花园。没有花园，人们就 不知道如何使用景观:使用花园是一回事，但 使用景观需要更高的教育。 如今，你可以在网上买房。既然可以拥有一些 基本的舒适性，为什么不拥有更多呢?现在撒 丁岛几乎所有的住宅，无论与海的关系如何， 都有一个游泳池。在我家，车不能直接开到前 门，必须把停在百米开外。如今，这是不可接 受的。

多年来，我一直认为这些都是理所当然的。随 着年龄的增长，我意识到这些都是父母有意 识的选择。 即使是20世纪70年代初，许多住宅也已经体 现出与过度舒适而非体验相关的奢华理念。 我家的住宅，这么说，就把夏季的体验放在首 位，将其作为满足和滋养的源泉。

在这几个月里，人们的头脑中充满了与米兰 不同的体验。你会注意到一系列别处难寻的 自然现象。你会注意到阳光如何影响你的心 情。身体活动决定了一天的时间。得益于此， 一个人会变得更加野性。住宅可以是工具，用 来重新发现。以某种视角来看，它也是一种天 文仪器;是一种旨在观察周围事物的科学仪 器。它也是用来阅读和写作的住宅，有那么多 地方，每个人可以根据自己的阅读内容和感 受去选择。从这个角度说来，它也是一座老式 的住宅。因为阅读，也许是某种类型的阅读， 属于一种自由。

你只在夏天使用这所住宅吗?

如果我向父母提议二月份去撒丁岛，他 们会看着我说:“你在说什么?”他们的思维 中，这所住宅属于夏天。住宅建成时没有暖 气，没有任何隔热、防寒或防潮措施。 冬天的时候，住宅关闭，床单会洗，毛巾会放 好。壁橱敞开着，以保持最起码的通风，但事 实上，湿度非常高。十二月，铺好床后，15分钟 内床单就会完全湿透。房子坐南朝北，两层都 直接靠在地面上，一年中大约有七个月阳光 几乎照不到，因为太阳在南侧，从住宅背面的 山后穿过。这栋住宅在夏天是绝佳的，因为它 比地表更凉爽。但在冬天，这里就不适合居住 了。如今，与度假屋相比发生变化的一点是， 度假屋可以在一年中的不同时期使用。所以 有一个问题一直存在，那就是该如何把它变 成一个全年都能使用的住宅，事实上，这需要 的是另一栋住宅。

当我们与贝卡和勒莫奈谈论东 京的森山邸时，他们告诉我们，屋主会 根据自己的心情在住宅内走动。你会联 想到这一点吗?

在我的想象中，一个人应该试着在住宅 外围的不同地点去走动和阅读。但这总是有 点困难。我的意思是，周围的风景很美，但并 不是我们所认为的温馨宜人的风景。这就是 为什么人们最后几乎总是待在住宅内或门廊 里，因为这所住宅最终被视为周围景观的避 难所。当然，也有例外情况，那就是人们来到 这些非常平坦、非常美丽、非常奇妙的岩石 旁，这些岩石仿佛就在帆船的甲板上，几乎就 在水面上。在这种情况下，你可以去游泳，但 住宅和风景之间没有过滤网。没有任何类似 于花园、庭院或中间地带的空间。住宅的墙很 厚，平面几乎是正方形。住宅外面是一片荒 野，只有门廊前的一小块空地上有一个石凳。 从建筑学的角度来看，没有花园也许是最直 观的。从我父母的角度来看，那里不需要花 园。你有住宅，你有门廊，它不是住宅的附属 物，而是一个真正的房间，是住宅砖石结构的 一部分。所以它不是木头做的。那里有的景 观，岩石，而且前面没有树木。这意味着你无 法避风，也无法回避直视住宅前的风景。事实 上，门廊的墙壁有一定的厚度，这样才能确保 适当程度的防风。 从某种角度看，如果有一个更加开放和中性 的空间，或许也更加现代化，那么这座住宅就 无法满足全天候的各种用途。

多年来，我可能没有意识到这是一个建筑决 策，但从我父母的角度来看，这一定是一个建 筑决策。住宅内的各种情形都是根据光线、风 和所进行的活动来决定的。

然而，这所住宅并不是作为人 体工程学的对象来设计的。

我记得拱门下的门廊上有个地方，大约 有两米长。它只有60厘米宽，所以当你坐在那 里的时候，就像是把自己放在一个被迫的位 置上，而你必须保持不动，几乎没有回旋的余 地。这是一种有趣的情况，因为它并不是从人 体工程学或功能主义的角度来考虑的，也就 是说，它并不是为了扮演这种角色而设计的。 然而，得益于建筑的精确性，这种多样化的场 所可以在功能意义上运作，也许更像是由功 能主义建筑师设计的。这是一种建筑理念，它 不会明确告诉你应该做什么，住宅应该如何 使用，但住宅可以以多种不同的方式使用，你 不必被迫以某种方式来使用它。阿尔多·罗西

(Aldo Rossi)的早期项目就具有这种使命 感，他创造了许多特殊的场所，在这些场所中 可以进行某些活动，而没有给出规定。这是一 座充满活动的住宅。它的确是一个思考的地 方，但同时也是一个冒险的地方。

这种冒险精神现在还存在吗?

我认为它仍然存在，但也许已经改变了。 其含义可能发生了一些变化。不过，我看到年 轻人，比如说，参加的运动可能比四十年前更 具竞争性。我认为，对许多人来说，这是一种 冒险。例如，美食体验也被视为一种冒险。

当然这些东西深受市场营销的影响，但我相 信冒险仍然存在。然而，如今那些想要真正冒 险性度假的人已经不会去撒丁岛了，就像他 们不会去恩加丁一样。他们去别的地方。

当然，你也可以在那里找到像沃格特这样的 人，但他有着非常独特的个人文化感受力。比 方说，曾经有一场精确的运动，导致许多人去 寻找这样的环境。就连扎努索也在附近建了 一座房子，然后是马吉斯特雷蒂。我们可以 说，这些住宅都属于第一代探险家，他们在寻 找不同的存在方式;不同的居住和在某地的 方式。

例如，阿尔贝托·波尼斯(Alberto Ponis)的 许多住宅都坐落在2000-2500平方米的小块 土地上，现在被大量的其他住宅包围着。因为 他们的住宅周围只有一小块保护地，而我的 住宅——这是我父亲在项目开始时就意识到 的——周围有总面积约两万平方米的土地。 可以说，岩石使得这所住宅遥不可及，是它真 正的堡垒。这意味着，即使从海上看，人们也 不会靠近，因为他们害怕这些大石头;这是一 个有点中世纪风格的系统，是一种自然防御。 你会因此觉得自己受到了很好的保护，但也 同样与世隔绝。保护是一把双刃剑，不是吗? 如果无事发生，那还好，但一旦发生了什么， 情况就会变得很危险，不容易得到帮助。当 你一个人在那里的时候，你会有非常暴露的 感觉。

住宅有两个大门——一个在上 层，一个在下层门廊。

住宅的后门多年来一直很好用。它是一 个重要的元素，因为到达时，你还没有看到 海，只是在下山的路上感觉到了它的存在，并 不明显。住宅的后背实际上是一道屏风。人们 必须进入、打开房门、下楼、打开窗户，只有在 这个时候，你才会看到海，同时也意识到它比 想象中的要近得多。同样的旅程反过来也特 别令人好奇，因为你必须关闭一楼的所有窗 户，上楼拿起行李箱，关上房子的后门，这时 就再也看不到风景了。此时，你已经坐上车， 准备离开。所以有这样一种想法，只有到了住 宅里，人们才会看到海，而海之前是隐蔽的， 住宅就像是途中的一道壁垒。

当您谈到这所住宅时，脑海中 浮现出主人的肖像——您父母的感性 肖像。

我觉得住宅有点像人，从某种意义上说， 它们有自己的青春期，然后变成老人，最后 死去。这也是建筑的演变和谱系。在这个过程 中，它们向我们传递信息，改变我们和我们之 间关系的质量。重要的是要与这些地方建立 情感联系，确保住宅是我们的自画像。因此， 与博物馆建筑、办公楼或火车站相比，住宅建 筑具有令人难以置信的特权，那就是住宅能 让我们与自己的个性建立更深层次的关系。 它们就像妻子、丈夫和孩子一样，是旅途中的 伴侣。但我不想在说这些话时过于浪漫。

当然，如今在杂志上看到的许多很常规的住 宅都否定了这种自画像的想法，变得非常世 俗、普通，它们是为了转售而建的。

23年4月18日

Sebastiano Brandolini: My parents lived in Milan. As we (me and my brother) were little children when they decided to build a summerhouse in a kind of colonial style, typical for the Milanese who built in Sardinia at the time. It was one of the first houses built in the north of Sardinia, contemporary to the large hotels of early real estate development of Costa Smeralda. The house I am talking about is not anonymous, its true designer was my mother. She was assisted by an architect, a local “geometra” who executed my mother’s instructions as precisely as possible and solved all the technical problems. She was a talented painter and therefore had, let’s say, the right sensitivity to be an architect, a bit like Le Corbusier.

The house has remained much like a child’s drawing. Conceptualizing a house by the sea is a bit like that. It was meant to be a house lacking in certain things, rather than equipped with all one can desire. It was conceived as a form given to the idea of subtraction rather than cumulation. At least, that’s how I see it.

WHY WAS THIS ASCETIC CONDITION SO IMPORTANT?

My parents had a rather particular idea of vacation, especially considering what was happening around that area of Sardinia. It is worth noting that from 1965 to 1974, for about ten years, my family went to this house practically for two and a half months every year. So it was a long vacation, but it was also something more. It was giving oneself the possibility for a certain aspect of one’s personality and identity to emerge. It was an aspect of life, that let’s say in Milan, was invisible.

It was a vacation that was a very long period, a period where friends came and went and where the rhythms and habits to which everyone was accustomed disappeared completely. Not only because it was far from home in Milan, but because the surrounding architecture and landscape made it possible.

A home is a space where you shouldn’t be on edge. This house kept you on the edge. Especially when you’re there alone, it’s a very intense experience because you have practically nothing around you. On the other hand, when that house is inhabited it suddenly becomes a lively home, a place where relationships between people are stimulated. I think that being in a slightly dangerous place invites you to reflect on various issues and leads to a different inner awareness. Like someone who crosses the Atlantic alone, if they don’t kill themselves, they get to know themselves a little better!

IN A PREVIOUS INTERVIEW, GÜNTHER VOGT ALSO SPOKE ABOUT HOW THIS ATTITUDE TO VACATION HAS ALMOST COMPLETELY DIASSAPEARED.

The house is in a particular place. The choice of location overlaps 100% with the idea of the house. This juxtaposition between the fantastic and erotic sensuality of the rocks and, let’s say, the cleanliness and practicality of the architecture is exactly the game of oppositions through which the house interacts with the landscape. To get to the house, the path is not long but quite challenging, in the sense that there are about 50 steps with a drop of twenty meters, and so as long as one is young, it’s easy to do both downhill and uphill. It is quite an effort for someone my age, especially because one has to carry the suitcases and empty bottles when leaving. It’s also quite narrow, about a meter and a half wide and made of stone, with plants that have grown a lot, so they form a kind of roof covering because the branches cross above, and it’s a very beautiful path that was once all sunny.

Now it’s all in the shade and extremely wild. It’s in the middle of the Mediterranean macchia, you can hear the noise of birds and insects. Sometimes one encounters a turtle or a small snake, so it’s a strategically very important place because it separates the position of the car from the position of the house.

It’s true, this is not commonly understandable anymore. The construction of houses and vacation homes is closely linked to sociology, anthropology, and habits. Just look at the magazines and interior design publications. Today, a large part of houses, like mine, and mine wasn’t the only house with this spirit, are a thing that people reject. It’s quite symptomatic that the meetings I had with real estate agents through whom I wanted to rent the house; they told me that a house like this is absolutely not in line with today’s needs. You can’t reach it by car, there are no windows. And anyway, to go down to the sea, you have to walk on a rock where many people feel a bit uncomfortable. It’s a house where the rooms are small, where you don’t have nighttime lighting, where you don’t have a garden. People without a garden don’t know how to use the landscape: using the garden is one thing, but using the landscape requires a higher education. Today you buy houses online. If you could have certain basic comforts, why shouldn’t you have more? Almost all houses in Sardinia now, regardless of their relationship with the sea, have a swimming pool. In my house, it was not possible to drive right up to the front door, you had to park the car 100 meters away. Today it’s unacceptable.

I took all these things for granted for many years. I realized as I grew older that these were conscious choices made by my parents. Even in the early 1970s many of the houses already manifested the idea of luxury linked to the excess of comfort rather than experience. My house, let’s say, was a house that puts experience at the forefront as a source of gratification and nourishment during the summer months.

During these months, one fills the head with experiences different from those in Milan. You notice a whole series of natural phenomena that you wouldn’t otherwise see. You notice how sunlight affects your mood. The physical activity shapes the hours of the day. One becomes somewhat wilder thanks to a house of this kind. A house can be a tool for rediscovery. It is also an astronomical instrument from a certain point of view; it’s a scientific instrument aimed at observing what’s around. It’s also a house for reading and writing, where there are many different places where everyone can go to read based on what one reads, on how one feels. And so from this point of view, it’s also an old-fashioned house. Because reading, perhaps a certain type of reading, belongs to a form of freedom.

DID YOU ONLY USE THE HOUSE IN THE SUMMER?

If I had proposed to my parents to go to Sardinia in February, they would have looked at me and said, ‘what are you talking about?’ In their mentality, it was the house for the summer. It was also built without heating, without any kind of insulation, without any kind of protection from the cold or humidity. During the winter, the house is closed, the sheets get washed, and the towels are put away. The closets are left open to have a minimum of ventilation, but in fact, the humidity is extremely high. In December, after you’ve made the bed, the sheets are completely wet in 15 minutes. The house faces north, both levels rest directly on the ground and are practically untouched by the sun’s rays for about seven months a year because the sun passes behind the mountain to the south, behind the house. So it’s a fantastic house in the summer because it’s cooler than the landscape. But it’s an uninhabitable house in the winter. Today, one of the things that have changed compared to holiday homes is that they are also used in different periods of the year. So, one question that has always been there is what should be done to turn the house into a year-round functioning home, and in fact, it would need to be a different house.

WHEN WE TALKED WITH BêKA AND LEMOINE ABOUT THE MORIYAMA HOUSE IN TOKYO, THEY TOLD US THAT THE OWNER MOVES AROUND THE HOUSE DEPENDING ON HIS MOOD. CAN YOU ASSOCIATE WITH THIS?

I imagined that one should try to go and read in different spots around the house. But this has always been a bit difficult. I mean, the landscape around is fantastic, but it’s not a landscape that we can consider inviting and welcoming. That’s why one almost always ends up staying inside the house or in the porch because this house, in the end, is perceived as a refuge from
the surrounding landscape. With the exception, of course, if one goes to these very flat, very beautiful, fantastic rocks, which seem to be on the deck of a sailboat and are practically on the water. And then in that case, you go for a swim, but there’s no filter between the house and the landscape. There’s no condition comparable to that of a garden or a courtyard or an intermediate space. The house has thick walls and an almost square plan. Immediately outside of it, you have the wild landscape, with the exception of this very small space in front, where there’s a stone bench right in front of the porch. The fact of not having any garden is perhaps the most intuitive thing from an architectural point of view. From my parents’ point of view, a garden there wasn’t necessary. You had the house, you had the porch, which is not an appendage of the house but a real room that is part of the house’s masonry. So it’s not made of wood. What’s there is the landscape, the rocks, and in front, you have no trees. It means you’re not protected from the wind and you can’t avoid seeing the landscape in front of the house. The fact that the porch has walls of a certain thickness is what ensures the right degree of protection from the wind.

If there had been a more open and neutral space from a certain point of view, and perhaps more modern as well, the house would not have allowed for the various uses throughout the day.

For many years, I probably didn’t realize that this was an architectural decision, but it must have been an architectural decision from my parents’ point of view. The variety of situations within the house are based on light, wind, and the activities that take place.

HOWEVER, THE HOUSE IS NOT DESIGNED AS A ERGONOMIC OBJECT.

I remember a place on the porch under the arch, which is about two meters long. It’s only 60 centimeters wide so when you sit there it’s like putting yourself in a forced position, while you have to stay still with very little room for maneuver. It’s an interesting situation, because it was not thought of in an ergonomic or functionalist sense, that is, it was not designed to play that role. However, thanks to architectural precision, diverse places of this kind can be used in a functional sense, perhaps more as if they were conceived by a functionalist architect. It’s an idea of architecture, that doesn’t tell you exactly what to do and how the house should be used, but the house can be used in many different ways without forcing you to use them in a certain way. Aldo Rossi’s early projects had this kind of vocation in creating situations where there are many special places and where certain actions can take place without giving prescriptions. It was a house full of activities. It was indeed a place of thought, but also as a place of adventure.

AND THIS SENSE OF ADVENTURE, IS IT SOMETHING THAT STILL EXISTS?

I think it still exists, but maybe it has changed. The meaning has probably shifted a bit. However, I see that young people, for example, engage in a type of sport that may be more competitive than it was forty years ago. I think for many people, that’s an adventure. The experience of food, for example, is seen as a type of adventure.

Of course, these things are heavily influenced by marketing, but I believe adventure still exists. However, those who want a truly adventurous vacation today don’t go to Sardinia anymore, just as they don’t go to Engadine. They go somewhere else.

Of course, you can find someone like Vogt there, but he has a very specific cultured personal sensibility. Let’s say that once there was a precise movement that led many people to seek such situations. Even Zanuso built a house nearby, then also Magistretti, and these are houses that belonged, we could say, to the first generation of explorers, people who were searching for a different existence; alternative ways of dwelling and being in a place.

What made our house different from many others is the dimension of the context; for example, many of Alberto Ponis’ houses sit on small plots of land of 2000-2500 square meters, are now surrounded by just as many other houses. They therefore had a small protection around them, whereas my house, and this was something my father was aware of at the beginning of the project, has land around that totals some 20,000 square meters. And it is mainly these rocks that make the house unreachable; you could say that the real fortress of the house are the rocks. Which means that even from the sea, people don’t come near the house because they are afraid of these large rocks; it’s a somewhat medieval system, a kind of natural defense. So you feel quite protected, but equally isolated. Protection is a double-edged sword, isn’t it? If nothing happens, it’s okay, but in a moment where something happens, it becomes a dangerous situation because it’s not easy to be reached and helped. When you’re there alone, you feel very exposed.

THE HOUSE HAS TWO MAIN DOORS - ONE ON THE UPPER LEVEL AND ONE ON THE LOWER THE PORCH.

The back door of the house has worked very well over the years. It is an important element, because when you arrive at the house, you haven’t seen the sea yet, and only sensed it whilst descending path; it’s not obvious.

The back of the house is effectively a screen. So one has to enter, open the house, go down, open the windows, etc., at only this point do you see the sea, and also simultaneously realize that it is much closer than one thought. And the same journey made in reverse is also particularly curious because one has to close all the windows on the ground floor, go upstairs, grab the suitcases, close the back door of the house, and the landscape is no longer visible. At this point, one is already mentally in the car, ready to leave. So there is this idea that only when one arrives at the house does one see the sea, which was hidden before, the house is kind of a barrier along the way.


AS YOU SPEAK ABOUT THIS HOUSE A PORTRAIT OF THE OWNER COMES TO MIND –
A PORTRAIT OF YOUR PARENTS SENSIBILITY.

I think houses are a bit like people, in a sense that they have their period of youth, then they become elderly, and eventually they die. There’s also the evolution, the genealogy of architecture. Throughout this journey, they inform us, they change us and the quality of our relationships. It’s important to establish an emotional relationship with these places and ensure that houses are self-portraits of who we are. And so, this is the incredible prerogative of residential architecture compared to museum architecture or office buildings or train stations, is that houses allow us to have a deeper relationship with our personality. They are companions on the road like wives, husbands and children. But I don’t want to be too romantic in saying these things.

Of course, many of the very conventional houses seen in magazines these days negate this idea of a self-portrait and become very mundane, generic and made to be resold.

18.04.23

塞巴斯蒂亚诺·布兰德里尼:我的父母住在米 兰。在我们(我和弟弟)还小的时候，他们决定 建造一座殖民风格的避暑屋，这是当时在撒 丁岛盖房的米兰人的典型风格。这是在撒丁 岛北部建造的第一批住宅之一，与斯美拉尔 达海岸早期房地产开发中的大型酒店同时 代。我所说的住宅并非师出无名，它的真正设 计师是我的母亲。她得到了一位建筑师的协 助，这位当地的“几何学家”尽可能精确地执 行了她的指示，并解决了所有的技术问题。我 的母亲是一位才华横溢的画家，因此，可以 说，她对建筑的敏感度很高，有点像勒·柯布 西耶(Le Corbusier)。

这栋住宅就像一幅儿童画。构思海边的住宅 就有点像这样。它的本意是缺少某些东西，而 不是配备人们所希望的一切。它的形式构思 方式是做减法而不是累加法。至少我是这么 认为的。

为什么这种禁欲条件如此重 要?

我的父母对度假有一种相当特别的想 法，尤其是考虑到当时撒丁岛那一带发生的 事情。值得注意的是，从1965年到1974年， 在大约十年的时间里，我的家人几乎每年都 会去这所住宅里住上两个半月。所以这是一 个漫长的假期，但也有了更多的意义。它在某 个层面上让自己的个性和身份有了崭露的可 能。这是生活的一个层面，比方说，在米兰是 看不到的。

那是一段很长的假期，朋友们来来往往，大家 惯有的节奏和习性完全消失了。这不仅仅因 为它远离米兰的家，周围的建筑和景观也使 之成为可能。

家是一个你不应该感到紧张的空间。这所住 宅让你一直处于临界状态。尤其是当你一个 人在那里时，那是一种非常紧张的体验，因为 你周围几乎什么都没有。另一方面，当住宅里 有人居住时，它突然变成了一个热闹的家，一 个激发人与人之间关系的地方。我认为，在一 个略显危险的地方，你会对各种问题进行反 思，并产生不同的内在意识。就像独自横渡大 西洋的人，如果他们没有自杀，就会对自己有 更多的了解!

在之前的一次采访中，岡瑟·沃 格特(Günther Vogt)也谈到了这种度 假态度是如何几乎完全消失的。

住宅位于一个特定的地方。地点的选择 与其理念完全一致。可以说，岩石的梦幻和情 色感与建筑的整洁和实用性之间的并置，正 是住宅与景观互动的对立游戏。通往住宅的 路并不长，但颇具挑战性，因为大约有50级 台阶，落差达二十米，所以只要年轻，下坡和 上坡都很容易。但对于我这个年纪的人来说， 走这条路是相当费劲的，尤其是离开时还得 拎着行李箱和空瓶子。这条路也很窄，大约一 米半宽，石块铺就，植物丛生，树枝在上空交 叉，形成了一种覆盖的屋檐。这是一条非常美 丽的小路，曾经阳光明媚，现在荫翳遮蔽，野 趣十足。

它耸立于地中海灌木之间，你可以听到鸟叫 和虫鸣。有时还会遇到乌龟或小蛇，这是一个 战略上非常重要的位置，因为它隔开了汽车 和住宅。

它耸立于地中海灌木之间，你可以听到鸟叫 和虫鸣。有时还会遇到乌龟或小蛇，这是一个 战略上非常重要的位置，因为它隔开了汽车 和住宅。

的确，这已经不是一般人能够理解的了。住宅 和度假屋的建造与社会学、人类学和生活习 惯密切相关。看看杂志和室内设计出版物就 知道了。如今，很大一部分住宅都是人们所排 斥的，比如我的，当然我的住宅并不是唯一具 有这种精神的。我想通过房地产中介租掉这 栋住宅，但他们告诉我，这样的房子绝对不符 合当今的需求。车到不了，也没有窗户。 而且要下到海边，你必须走在岩石上，很多人 都觉得有点不舒服。这栋住宅的房间很小，没 有夜间照明，也没有花园。没有花园，人们就 不知道如何使用景观:使用花园是一回事，但 使用景观需要更高的教育。 如今，你可以在网上买房。既然可以拥有一些 基本的舒适性，为什么不拥有更多呢?现在撒 丁岛几乎所有的住宅，无论与海的关系如何， 都有一个游泳池。在我家，车不能直接开到前 门，必须把停在百米开外。如今，这是不可接 受的。

多年来，我一直认为这些都是理所当然的。随 着年龄的增长，我意识到这些都是父母有意 识的选择。 即使是20世纪70年代初，许多住宅也已经体 现出与过度舒适而非体验相关的奢华理念。 我家的住宅，这么说，就把夏季的体验放在首 位，将其作为满足和滋养的源泉。

在这几个月里，人们的头脑中充满了与米兰 不同的体验。你会注意到一系列别处难寻的 自然现象。你会注意到阳光如何影响你的心 情。身体活动决定了一天的时间。得益于此， 一个人会变得更加野性。住宅可以是工具，用 来重新发现。以某种视角来看，它也是一种天 文仪器;是一种旨在观察周围事物的科学仪 器。它也是用来阅读和写作的住宅，有那么多 地方，每个人可以根据自己的阅读内容和感 受去选择。从这个角度说来，它也是一座老式 的住宅。因为阅读，也许是某种类型的阅读， 属于一种自由。

你只在夏天使用这所住宅吗?

如果我向父母提议二月份去撒丁岛，他 们会看着我说:“你在说什么?”他们的思维 中，这所住宅属于夏天。住宅建成时没有暖 气，没有任何隔热、防寒或防潮措施。 冬天的时候，住宅关闭，床单会洗，毛巾会放 好。壁橱敞开着，以保持最起码的通风，但事 实上，湿度非常高。十二月，铺好床后，15分钟 内床单就会完全湿透。房子坐南朝北，两层都 直接靠在地面上，一年中大约有七个月阳光 几乎照不到，因为太阳在南侧，从住宅背面的 山后穿过。这栋住宅在夏天是绝佳的，因为它 比地表更凉爽。但在冬天，这里就不适合居住 了。如今，与度假屋相比发生变化的一点是， 度假屋可以在一年中的不同时期使用。所以 有一个问题一直存在，那就是该如何把它变 成一个全年都能使用的住宅，事实上，这需要 的是另一栋住宅。

当我们与贝卡和勒莫奈谈论东 京的森山邸时，他们告诉我们，屋主会 根据自己的心情在住宅内走动。你会联 想到这一点吗?

在我的想象中，一个人应该试着在住宅 外围的不同地点去走动和阅读。但这总是有 点困难。我的意思是，周围的风景很美，但并 不是我们所认为的温馨宜人的风景。这就是 为什么人们最后几乎总是待在住宅内或门廊 里，因为这所住宅最终被视为周围景观的避 难所。当然，也有例外情况，那就是人们来到 这些非常平坦、非常美丽、非常奇妙的岩石 旁，这些岩石仿佛就在帆船的甲板上，几乎就 在水面上。在这种情况下，你可以去游泳，但 住宅和风景之间没有过滤网。没有任何类似 于花园、庭院或中间地带的空间。住宅的墙很 厚，平面几乎是正方形。住宅外面是一片荒 野，只有门廊前的一小块空地上有一个石凳。 从建筑学的角度来看，没有花园也许是最直 观的。从我父母的角度来看，那里不需要花 园。你有住宅，你有门廊，它不是住宅的附属 物，而是一个真正的房间，是住宅砖石结构的 一部分。所以它不是木头做的。那里有的景 观，岩石，而且前面没有树木。这意味着你无 法避风，也无法回避直视住宅前的风景。事实 上，门廊的墙壁有一定的厚度，这样才能确保 适当程度的防风。 从某种角度看，如果有一个更加开放和中性 的空间，或许也更加现代化，那么这座住宅就 无法满足全天候的各种用途。

多年来，我可能没有意识到这是一个建筑决 策，但从我父母的角度来看，这一定是一个建 筑决策。住宅内的各种情形都是根据光线、风 和所进行的活动来决定的。

然而，这所住宅并不是作为人 体工程学的对象来设计的。

我记得拱门下的门廊上有个地方，大约 有两米长。它只有60厘米宽，所以当你坐在那 里的时候，就像是把自己放在一个被迫的位 置上，而你必须保持不动，几乎没有回旋的余 地。这是一种有趣的情况，因为它并不是从人 体工程学或功能主义的角度来考虑的，也就 是说，它并不是为了扮演这种角色而设计的。 然而，得益于建筑的精确性，这种多样化的场 所可以在功能意义上运作，也许更像是由功 能主义建筑师设计的。这是一种建筑理念，它 不会明确告诉你应该做什么，住宅应该如何 使用，但住宅可以以多种不同的方式使用，你 不必被迫以某种方式来使用它。阿尔多·罗西

(Aldo Rossi)的早期项目就具有这种使命 感，他创造了许多特殊的场所，在这些场所中 可以进行某些活动，而没有给出规定。这是一 座充满活动的住宅。它的确是一个思考的地 方，但同时也是一个冒险的地方。

这种冒险精神现在还存在吗?

我认为它仍然存在，但也许已经改变了。 其含义可能发生了一些变化。不过，我看到年 轻人，比如说，参加的运动可能比四十年前更 具竞争性。我认为，对许多人来说，这是一种 冒险。例如，美食体验也被视为一种冒险。

当然这些东西深受市场营销的影响，但我相 信冒险仍然存在。然而，如今那些想要真正冒 险性度假的人已经不会去撒丁岛了，就像他 们不会去恩加丁一样。他们去别的地方。

当然，你也可以在那里找到像沃格特这样的 人，但他有着非常独特的个人文化感受力。比 方说，曾经有一场精确的运动，导致许多人去 寻找这样的环境。就连扎努索也在附近建了 一座房子，然后是马吉斯特雷蒂。我们可以 说，这些住宅都属于第一代探险家，他们在寻 找不同的存在方式;不同的居住和在某地的 方式。

例如，阿尔贝托·波尼斯(Alberto Ponis)的 许多住宅都坐落在2000-2500平方米的小块 土地上，现在被大量的其他住宅包围着。因为 他们的住宅周围只有一小块保护地，而我的 住宅——这是我父亲在项目开始时就意识到 的——周围有总面积约两万平方米的土地。 可以说，岩石使得这所住宅遥不可及，是它真 正的堡垒。这意味着，即使从海上看，人们也 不会靠近，因为他们害怕这些大石头;这是一 个有点中世纪风格的系统，是一种自然防御。 你会因此觉得自己受到了很好的保护，但也 同样与世隔绝。保护是一把双刃剑，不是吗? 如果无事发生，那还好，但一旦发生了什么， 情况就会变得很危险，不容易得到帮助。当 你一个人在那里的时候，你会有非常暴露的 感觉。

住宅有两个大门——一个在上 层，一个在下层门廊。

住宅的后门多年来一直很好用。它是一 个重要的元素，因为到达时，你还没有看到 海，只是在下山的路上感觉到了它的存在，并 不明显。住宅的后背实际上是一道屏风。人们 必须进入、打开房门、下楼、打开窗户，只有在 这个时候，你才会看到海，同时也意识到它比 想象中的要近得多。同样的旅程反过来也特 别令人好奇，因为你必须关闭一楼的所有窗 户，上楼拿起行李箱，关上房子的后门，这时 就再也看不到风景了。此时，你已经坐上车， 准备离开。所以有这样一种想法，只有到了住 宅里，人们才会看到海，而海之前是隐蔽的， 住宅就像是途中的一道壁垒。

当您谈到这所住宅时，脑海中 浮现出主人的肖像——您父母的感性 肖像。

我觉得住宅有点像人，从某种意义上说， 它们有自己的青春期，然后变成老人，最后 死去。这也是建筑的演变和谱系。在这个过程 中，它们向我们传递信息，改变我们和我们之 间关系的质量。重要的是要与这些地方建立 情感联系，确保住宅是我们的自画像。因此， 与博物馆建筑、办公楼或火车站相比，住宅建 筑具有令人难以置信的特权，那就是住宅能 让我们与自己的个性建立更深层次的关系。 它们就像妻子、丈夫和孩子一样，是旅途中的 伴侣。但我不想在说这些话时过于浪漫。

当然，如今在杂志上看到的许多很常规的住 宅都否定了这种自画像的想法，变得非常世 俗、普通，它们是为了转售而建的。

23年4月18日

SEBASTIANO BRANDOLINI

Sebastiano Brandolini is an architect based in Milan, a professor at the Milan Polytechnic, and the author of architectural monographs and guidebooks. He was editor of the Italian architectural magazine Casabella from 1984 to 1995 and regularly publishes books and articles.

SEBASTIANO BRANDOLINI

Sebastiano Brandolini is an architect based in Milan, a professor at the Milan Polytechnic, and the author of architectural monographs and guidebooks. He was editor of the Italian architectural magazine Casabella from 1984 to 1995 and regularly publishes books and articles.

SEBASTIANO BRANDOLINI

Sebastiano Brandolini is an architect based in Milan, a professor at the Milan Polytechnic, and the author of architectural monographs and guidebooks. He was editor of the Italian architectural magazine Casabella from 1984 to 1995 and regularly publishes books and articles.